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November 2018

Readership: Up to 32,000 monthly

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Caravanning News readership Oct 2018

Breaking News headline
For full list, click above

NOV 29:
Customline Caravans, which hit the market three years ago and was operated by the former owners of failed Galaxy Caravans, went into liquidation today.

NOV 29:
Creditors of family-owned and operated Colorado Caravans, which is in voluntary administration, will hold a second meeting on December 4 to discuss the company's future.

Click on BREAKING NEWS above to see full list of stories.


* Missing Queensland grey nomad mystery ... 56,029 people reached.

* Billabong Custom Caravans in administration ... 38,256 people reached.

* Park boss says free camping is killing his business ... 36,922 people reached

* Bunbury council appeals for free-camping feedback ... 23,535 people reached.

* Diamond Caravans in liquidation ... 22,730 people reached.

* Soldier blasts 'ignorant' caravanners ... 11,622 people reached.


'Good policy to leave before
the ship sinks'

A QUEENSLAND caravan organisation seems to want total control and has recently spent thousands on squashing the Aussie battlers in court over Kershaw Gardens.

But it's actions like this that make many of us only more determined for a free Australia with national parking laws where we can rest without big business demanding a monopoly.

You underestimate the power of the consumer and our ability to gang together to buy and lease our own camping destinations all over this country.

We will win, and if we don't I will sell my rig and holiday abroad.

Have you ever heard of an industry so hell bent on hurting and alienating their potential customers?

I will not set foot in a Queensland caravan park again after the way they treat their clients and customers.

The boss needs to go to business school and learn that it's about listening to customers.

His way is to demand a monopoly for caravan sardine tins. Best of luck with that model!

They might win Kershaw Gardens but they will lose in the PR aftermath on forums and social media.

It's a good policy to leave a ship before it sinks.



REGARDING last month's story about hackers attacking a Gold Coast business (see story here).

I have contacted two different caravan parks this year where I had stayed previously.

Both said they have my credit card details on file.

How rude! Is this allowed?

I bet this happens in motels etc, too.

P&L Luecke.

Too many

WHAT a shame, Australian businesses going out the door (see story here).

One of the problems could be too many makers for the size of our population and no uniformity in the industry.

Ge Wilson.




Kershaw Gardens

Caravanners threaten to boycott Beef capital

Court rules that overnight camping
at Kershaw Gardens is illegal

By Dennis Amor

THE Caravan Parks Association of Queensland has won its legal battle to ban free overnight camping at Rockhampton's Kershaw Gardens. The Environment and Planning Court has decided that camping is illegal and ruled that overnight stays must cease on February 15 next year and all signs removed. Caravanners and other budget-conscious travellers are now threatening to boycott the Beef capital of Queensland and take their tourist dollars elsewhere. The parks association launched proceedings late last year against Rockhampton Regional Council and the State Government arguing that its use as a tourist park at the large camping ground on Moores Creek Rd should be outlawed. Caravanning Queensland general manager of parks Michelle Weston said the association was "pleased" with the decision, which had provided certainty to its members in the Rockhampton region. "The association was always of the view that the accommodation use of Kershaw Gardens went beyond the ordinary use of a park," she said. "The fact that the accommodation offered was provided free of charge was detrimentally impacting the business of our members. In light of the continuation of this unlawful development and in the interest of our members, including local caravan park operators, we were left with little alternative but to take legal action." The 4600-member Australian Caravan Club fears the decision could have repercussions in other regional and rural areas and has called on the Queensland Government to organise a round table conference. Have your say

Terry Park

Terry Park:
Happy days

Roger Beighton

Roger Beighton:

Sue Thorpe

Sue Thorpe:

Story-Photos: Dennis Amor
Have your say

CARAVANNERS are being forced to rethink their travel plans as the cost of fuel continues to soar.

Budget-conscious grey nomads say they cannot afford to dig any deeper into their savings as petrol and diesel prices reach record levels.

"The oil companies have us over a barrel and the consequences may well be catastrophic for many remote communities as travellers cut back on their mileage," 67-year-old caravanner Alex Martin told Caravanning News.

Grey nomads report that travelling off-road to some remote destinations often meant forking out more than $2 a litre for fuel.

The thorny issue has been brought about by volatile global oil prices and a softening Australian dollar, which has pushed up prices to retailers.

The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission blames OPEC for the motorists' pain.

"The oil producing nations offshore run a cartel and just like every cartel they raise prices to consumers," chairman Rod Sims is reported to have said.

Meanwhile, grey nomads say they are being forced to spend more time off the road and at free overnight camping sites to make ends meet.

'It's either that or give up our
nomadic lifestyle'

"It's either that or give up our nomadic lifestyle and fester at home," Dan Bradshaw explained.

Terry Park, who hauls a 29ft Jayco fifth-wheeler behind his Dodge Ram, said he remembered "the happy days" in 1980 when fuel was a mere 30c a litre.

"I'm hoping to attend a national rally in WA next year but it will cost a small fortune," he said.

Another caravanner, from Brisbane and who only wanted to be known as Ken, said the cost of fuel had "gone through the roof" and he was having to dig deeper into his pocket to stay on the road with his Mitsubishi diesel and 19.6ft Essentials caravan.

Queensland caravanner Roger Beighton said he found it difficult to understand how the oil companies could justify such high prices.

"There's no doubt we are being fleeced," he said. "Makes you think twice about travelling long distances."

Sue Thorpe said the cost of towing her 20ft Jayco Starcraft with an Izuzu had risen $40 a week and was "out of all reason".

"It's just a rip-off," she fumed. "We are budgeting and considering not travelling great distances in future

Another grey nomad, who declined to be named, thought it unfair that the government should reap in around 40c in tax for every litre of fuel sold at the bowser.


Government cuts 'excessive' red tape

New specialised licence will mean big savings for RV dealers and repairers

THE NSW Government's recently announced Better Business Reforms will mean big savings for the State's recreational vehicle dealers and repairers. New specialised licence categories will be introduced to allow LP gas and electrical equipment to be installed in caravans and other RVs. "Dealers currently need to employ workers who hold full gas and electrical licences to simply repair or install gas and electrical equipment in RVs. That's excessive red tape," Minister for Innovation and Better Regulation Matt Kean said. "This new licence will save RV repairers an estimated $16 million over 10 years." Under the specialised licence, workers will be able to service and repair badged gas appliances and LP gas cylinders on caravans and other RVs, but not LP gas tanks. Workers granted specialised licences will have been properly trained. The reforms will also mean RV businesses in NSW will no longer need a tow truck driver's licence when using their own trucks to transport RVs to and from showrooms and expo venues. The Caravan & Camping Industry Association of NSW has welcomed the initiatives. Have your say

Stuart LamontPeak body speaks out after forum
THE caravanning industry's peak body has acknowledged that all RV buyers should be entitled to "safe and compliant" vehicles.
The Caravan Industry Association of Australia made the point after a joint communique issued by the Consumer Affairs Forum which was attended by government ministers responsible for consumer protection in their relevant jurisdictions. Association chief executive Stuart Lamont (pictured) said the Federal Government should ensure the Road Vehicle Standards Act received its third and final reading without further delay at the Senate sitting this month. He said his organisation continued to take its stewardship of the industry seriously and also referred to so-call 'Lemon Laws'. Read more button

Welcome mat pulled from under holidaymakers
HOLIDAYMAKERS will not be welcome at the Palms Oasis Caravan Park at Blueys Beach in NSW after January 31. Ingenia Communities has bought the park, used by generations of families for their annual holidays, and plans to transform it into an over 55s lifestyle village. It has submitted a development application to MidCoast Council for additional permanent residences. Have your say

Redmond Park, GoondiwindiOvernight ban set for Redmond Park
FREE overnight camping at Goondiwindi's Redmond Park will be banned after November 30.
The local council made the decision after a recommendation from Queensland's Department of Natural Resources, Mines and Energy. Mayor Graeme Scheu said signs would be erected at the park and a campaign launched explaining that alternative riverside free-camping areas had recently received a makeover. Some caravan parks in the border town have also indicated their willingness to introduce low-lost camping options and these will be promoted by the council. Have your say

Park weighs in on caravan safety
CARAVANNERS using a NSW caravan park have had a great weight lifted off their minds.
Gundagai Tourist Park, just off the Hume Highway midway between Sydney and Melbourne, has installed a caravan weighbridge to help them check their rigs are not overweight. "We see a lot of large 'vans come through our park every day, and more often than not they are kitted out with post delivery extras that all add to their weight," the park's Duncan Grady told Caravanning News. "People are retro fitting extra gas bottles, increased water storage, bike racks, solar panels and awnings just to name a few." Mr Duncan said the idea of installing a fully functional weighbridge was sparked by one of the park's directors who noticed an increase in compliance and policing of caravans on the road, including roadside weight checks. Read more button

JackLifting the profile of safety with jacks
THERE are too many "nasty accidents" when jacks are being used to change wheels on caravans and camper-trailers, according to the Caravan Council of Australia.
"There have been reports of some jacks having their lifting mechanism unexpectedly fail, causing the jack to instantly collapse," founder and general manager Colin Young said. "It is essential that a caravan jack is appropriately approved and has a sufficient load rating and lifting range," Mr Young stressed. The CCA has now issued a guide on the safe use of jacks. Read more button

Barrie (left) with Barbara and CCQ president Adrian Skinner

Barrie (left) with CCQ president Adrian Skinner
and Barbara.

'I really enjoy the camaraderie'

Avid caravanner Barrie
a rally junkie ... at 88!

Story-Photo: Dennis Amor

EVEN at the grand old age of 88, Sunshine State caravanner Barrie Thurecht admits he's still a rally junkie. Barrie was among the 400 enthusiasts who flocked to Bundaberg for the recent Caravan Clubs of Queensland's 41st State Rally ... an event he has rarely missed. He was hooked after attending the club's very first get-together at Esk Caravan Park in 1976. He has even chalked up 300 rallies with the Suncoast Caravanning Club, of which he is a member. "I just love being part of the club rallies and really enjoy the camaraderie," the owner of a Jayco Starcraft told Caravanning News. Barrie said he had no designs on giving up caravanning. "It's a lifestyle and the way to go. You have the option to stop where you want to stop," he explained. Caravan Clubs of Queensland secretary Barbara Rutherford said the seven-day rally in the Rum City had been a resounding success. "It's been a very friendly affair attended by caravanners from all over Queensland," she added. Seminars and presentations by police and the state's Transport Department had been well attended. Bundaberg Mayor Jack Dempsey said the rally had provided a huge economic stimulus to the region. "Council and our tourism group have worked in tandem with caravanners and RV owners and their industry groups to ensure we have a region that is welcoming to a sector that provides an incredible stimulus to our economy through a boost in visitor numbers," he said.  Have your say

Linked story: Caravanners in brush with the cops

ACC musterAnother milestone for national caravan club
THE 4600-member Australian Caravan Club has chalked up another milestone.
It recently held its annual National Muster in Western Australia for the first time in the club's 12-year history. The event from October 15 to 21 was staged at the Ocean Beach Holiday Park in Denmark. National chairman Craig Humphrey described the annual get-together as the club's "showcase event". Read more button

Pooncarie supported in RV-friendly bid
WENTWORTH Shire Council in NSW has moved to attract more grey nomads to the area.
Councillors decided to support the Pooncarie and District Development Association's bid for the tiny village of Pooncarie to become an RV Friendly destination. The program is an initiative of the Campervan and Motorhome Club of Australia which advertises stopovers that meet a certain criteria and welcome RV or caravan tourists. Pooncarie is a tiny hamlet on the Darling River and was once a vital staging place for river steamers. It still hosts the Pooncarie Cup, a popular race carnival, every October. Have your say

Yelgun rest areaTruckie slams nomads over rest areas
BRISBANE-based truckie Bruce Skelton has slammed grey nomads for commandeering truck parking spots at roadside rest areas.
He now wants the authorities to take action against caravanners and other RVers who monopolise parking bays specially set aside for heavy vehicles. "It's beyond a joke," the frustrated Mr Skelton told the transport industry's nationally distributed Big Rigs newspaper. "Caravan associations talk about it, but every few months we get a whole new breed of caravanners who have no idea and have to learn from scratch." Read more button

Coromal and Windsor deal was a 'compelling purchase'
APOLLO Tourism and Leisure acquired the loss-making Coromal and Windsor caravan brands from Fleetwood Corp because it was a "compelling purchase".
That was the message delivered by the Brisbane-based global company to investors at the Morgans Annual Queensland Conference. Apollo, which claims to be one of the largest RV operators in the world, said in its presentation that independent forecasts had suggested that growth in the RV rental and sales markets would continue in coming years. It predicted after-tax profits of between $22 million and $24 million for the current financial year. Apollo said the typical RV buyer was middle to retirement age with savings sufficient to buy an RV. An ageing population with increasing savings was resulting in a growing RV market, the company added. Have your say

Secura Lifestyle Shepperton EastTribunal rules on 'transformation by stealth'
IT'S official ... the Secura Lifestyle property at Shepperton in Victoria is a caravan and camping park.
The Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal has ruled that the construction of nine new high quality cabins for permanent accommodation would not transform its use into anything other than a caravan park. The local city council had feared that Trio Parks Vic wanted to turn the site into a residential or retirement village. But the tribunal was told that accommodation options include a selection of self-contained cabins along with powered and unpowered caravan and camping sites. Announcing its decision, Member Judith Perlstein said the site had been used as a caravan park since the 1980s. "It includes a myriad of short-term accommodation options as well as long-term and has facilities that are consistent with those of a caravan park," she said. "I appreciate that council is trying to be proactive and avoid a situation where there is 'transformation by stealth' and where the dominant use of the land becomes retirement or residential living," Ms Perlstein added. Have your say

Artesian baths in Julia Creek

Travellers soak their cares away

Rave reviews for park's
unique artesian baths

By Dennis Amor

UNIQUE artesian baths at a far north Queensland caravan park are getting rave reviews on the world's largest travel site, TripAdvisor. McKinlay Shire Council has installed four bath houses at its Julia Creek Caravan Park, each with two huge claw-footed tubs ... and tourists are flocking to 'take the waters''. Nearly 70 bathers a day have been soaking their cares away, some even tucking into cheese platters catered for by a local supplier. McKinlay Mayor Belinda Murphy said the concept had been a success, with the number of park guests who get to bathe for free increasing. The $300,000 baths were financed with a federal government Drought Communities Program grant. Commenting on TripAdvisor, Brisbane guest Carolyn said her recent stay at the park was "outback gold", describing the baths as "the absolute cherry on top". Meanwhile, Denise and Geoff wrote: "The outdoor artesian baths are a must ... cheese platter and glass of red wine just tops it off." The 'Melbourneros' said bathing at twilight was a big treat. "Loved it," they wrote. Others described the facility as incredible, a rare treat, to die for and awesome. Have your say

Lotto winNomads join line of lucky lotto winners
A GREY nomad couple has joined a line of lucky lotto winners to scoop $200,000 in NSW's Lucky Lotteries Mega Jackpot.
Told of their windfall, the roving RVers ‒ who hail from New England and did not want to be identified ‒ commented: "We won't be eating mince in the caravan tonight. We'll be pigging out for sure!" They now plan to buy a new 4WD, a diesel heater and satellite TV for their caravan. The happy-go-lucky caravanners won the guaranteed first prize of $200,000 in Lucky Lotteries Mega Jackpot. Read More button

Club membership continues to grow
THE Australian Caravan Club is enjoying strong growth in its membership.
During the past 12 months the club established seven new branches, bringing its total to 53 branches Australia wide. It now has 19 in Queensland, 13 in New South wales, nine in Victoria, six in Western Australia, five in South Australia and one in Tasmania. The average number of RVs in each branch is 27, with three of them having over 50. The club said it expected the strong growth to remain steady as it continues to "promote the use of recreational vehicles and the RVing lifestyle throughout Australia". The 4600-member club was founded in 2006 by a small group of caravanners at the Golden Beach Caravan Park on Queensland's Sunshine Coast. Have your say

St Helens Waterfront Holiday ParkOz's newest park opens for business
AUSTRALIA'S newest holiday park has welcomed its first guests.
Overlooking Georges Bay and just minutes from the Bay of Fires in Tasmania, the $10m NRMA St Helens Waterfront Holiday Park offers 26 cabins and 45 powered ensuite and camping sites, a camp kitchen, recreation room, BBQ, laundry and playground. Managers Ryan and Sally Pendergast were excited to officially open their doors to the public after years of hard work and long days. Read more button

Partnership a 'logical fit'
DOMETIC and Caravan Industry Association of Australia have agreed terms for increasing funding for the peak national body as well as extending the existing agreement out to five years. A core component will be additional stimulus marketing activities designed to promote the benefits of caravanning and camping and to grow the market for all industry participants. Dometic Australia and NZ managing director Brad Slater said it was important to ensure that caravanning and camping remained at the forefront of the public's imagination. "This partnership is a logical fit," he said. Read more button

Highway 1 Caravan and Tourist ParkAspen settles Highway 1 acquisition
ASPEN has announced that its acquisition of Highway 1 Caravan & Tourist Park at Bolivar in SA has now been settled.
"Integration of the business is underway in readiness for the Christmas holiday trading period," it said in a statement. The mixed-use park fronts Port Wakefield Road, a main thoroughfare in the northern suburbs of Adelaide. It offers 320 sites comprising a blend of permanent and extended resident accommodation, high-quality tourist cabins, studio-style motel units and traditional campsites. Its attractions include recently refurbished facilities, two outdoor pools, a pool-side camp kitchen and recreational area. Have your say

RV village planned for Coral Coast
AN RV village featuring 487 home sites is to be built on Queensland's Coral Coast.
The development on vacant land at Burnett Heads has been approved by Bundaberg Regional Council. RV Lifestyle Village Oceanside says that relocatable homes will have attached accommodation for caravans and other recreational vehicles. There will also be a caretaker’s residence, communal gardens, fenced dog run, maintenance area, bowling green, indoor pool and wash down bay. Have your say

LECO caravan

Read about 'brick-tastic' new record

GWR unveils official story
of our LEGO brick caravan

Have your say

GUINNESS World Records (GWR) has now posted the full story of how Australia captured the new record for the largest LEGO brick caravan ever built. The achievement appears on its official site of record-breaking facts and accomplishments. It invites readers to "take a tour" to learn how the "brick-tastic new record" was set for the biggest LEGO brick caravan, which took a total of 288,630 individual bricks and five weeks to complete. It was modelled on a 1973 Viscount Royale and was built to scale. Caravanning Queensland and Top Parks were officially recognised as new holders of the title after its LEGO caravan was inspected by GWR adjudicator Brian Sobel at the Brisbane Holiday Village. It beat the previous record held in the UK by 73,472 bricks. To read GWR's full account of the achievement, click here.

Wyalup Rocky PointBunbury trials new overnight rest areas
THE City of Bunbury in WA plans to throw down the welcome mat for grey nomads and other travellers by trialling three new overnight rest areas.
It wants to attract more self-contained RVs to the region and has identified Wyalup Rocky Point pull-over bays, Ocean Drive car park (adjacent to Scott Street) and Maiden’s Reserve car park as potential sites. Only self-contained vehicles will be allowed to use the rest areas – tents or vehicles not fully self-contained will not be allowed. Bunbury Mayor Gary Brennan said the two-year trial would begin in summer. "This market segment – often referred to as grey nomads – spends much of the year travelling Australia providing both economic and social benefits to the cities and towns they visit,," he explained. "We are missing out on this fantastic opportunity so over the trial period we will carefully monitor impacts to the community and seek to measure the benefits added to the city." Have your say

Power station overhaul a boost for local parks
A $49 million overhaul and maintenance program will bring a welcome boost to caravan parks in Queensland's rural town of Biloela.
Minister for Natural Resources, Mines and Energy Dr Anthony Lynham said about 370 contractors would be on site for the major program of works at the nearby Callide Power Station, which would run to early December. "The contractors will work alongside the power station's permanent workforce and are being accommodated at motels and caravan parks in Biloela, bringing $4 million in flow-on economic benefits to the region," he said. Have your say

Melbourne LeisurrefestLeisurefest an 'overwhelming success'
THIS year's Melbourne Leisurefest attracted over 32,000 visitors, organisers have revealed.
The Caravan Industry Association of Victoria said sunshine across the whole four-day event added to everyone's enjoyment while viewing the best the industry had to offer. "Once again it was an overwhelming success and enticed some outdoor adventurers to attend who would not normally do so," association chief executive Rob Lucas commented. "The stable of exhibitors continues to improve and become more diverse every event. Read more button

ACC stalwart awarded Life Membership

'Truly fortunate to have them as members'

ACC trio honoured for 'exemplary service'

THREE stalwarts of the nationwide Australian Caravan Club have been conferred with Life Membership for "exemplary service". They are Cec and Di Caterer and Derek Hale. Chairman Craig Humphrey said the club was "truly fortunate" to have them as members and so involved over such long periods of time. "As I consistently say, the strength of the club is in our members and we acknowledge them in the most fitting way that we can," he said. "On behalf of all members, I congratulate them and do hope they are an inspiration to other members to become more involved in the club." In a first for the club, members voted to award a husband and wife Life Membership, with Di Caterer becoming the first female to receive the accolade. "It is an honour to be recognised for the work we have undertaken over the last 10 years within the ACC," the Caterers said. And Mr Hale commented: "I have been fortunate to be able to assist and develop the club both in my beloved Victoria and on a national level over the last 10 years." Have your say

Surf Coast guided walk a hit for campers
PLANS are underway for future guided walks and coastal experiences in Victoria after a successful tour for campers at the Torquay Foreshore and Anglesea Family caravan parks.
The Great Ocean Road Coast Committee and traditional owners the Wadawurrung partnered to offer the unique experience. Twenty-one walkers on the three-day tour gained cultural knowledge and were told stories of Wadawurrung Country and the Aboriginal heritage along the Surf Coast. GORC chairman Ken Northwood said the tour was the first of its kind and demonstrated the value that a community-based organisation could add to a coastal experience. "The weekend was a resounding success and a brilliant way to showcase all that the coast has to offer," he said. "We look forward to welcoming and educating many more visitors with future walks." Have your say

Pinjarra Massacre monumentMassacre delays decision on park plan
MURRAY Shire Council in WA has deferred a decision on whether to allow a new caravan park to be built near the scene of an Aboriginal massacre.
It decided at its last meeting that the issue required further investigation into the Aboriginal heritage of the land before a fully informed decision could be made. This would include its impact on the cultural heritage and the local community. The proposed park would adjoin the southern boundary of the recognised Pinjarra Massacre heritage-listed site, about 2km from the Pinjarra Town centre. Led by Governor James Stirling, dozens of Noongar men, women, and children were slaughtered in 1834. If given the go-ahead, the park would offer about 116 camping and caravan sites, chalets and park home sites. "The caravan park and camping grounds will provide much needed tourist and short stay accommodation within Pinjarra and will enhance the current accommodation options to visitors to the Shire," a council report said. (Photo: monument at the site of the massacre). Have your say

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Letter man

Crying wolf over free camping 'freeloaders' in residential areas

SO caravan parks are being thrown to the wolves, according to a story in your last edition (see story here).

Well, I would hate to be a resident of either Tiaro or Bauple in Queensland where there is free camping.

They are in residential areas and residents have to watch these 'freeloaders' wandering about in their undies and brushing their teeth and spitting the contents of their mouths on the ground.

We, the residents, have to pay for our water and other services and it irks me to see these freeloaders come into town, use all the facilities that have been paid for by residents and then move on to the next 'free' spot.

If they want to travel, then they should have to stay in caravan parks and pay for that privilege.

Peter Allott.

Other side of coin

ON the other side of the coin, many find that without free camping options there is just not enough room in the caravan parks in the peak season.

Also, if there is no free camping option, many do not stop in such towns.


Catering for both

THERE are two types of RV owners – those who go to caravan parks and those that don't.

If you want business in your town, you need to cater for both.

A free camp near a town does not take business away from a caravan park.

If you are not doing well as a CP owner, look at your business and work out why. You may have to lift your game.

Comparing rates for a CP in the US is useless. Chalk and cheese.

Paul Elbourne.

Making money

I WOULD like to comment on the eviction notices at Ingenia's park, which looks like being turned into an over-55s village, at Bluey Beach (see story here).

So what is the best way to turn a $7.5 million investment into a rapid growth investment?

You are not going to gain a lot by a Christmas campers' rush, that's for sure. No, you turn it into a village and triple your money.

I mean the complainers losing their Christmas spot are invited to first choice of the new dwellings ... if they wish.

The "It had become a family tradition to spend Christmas there. I don't know what we'll do now" groups will have to do what we all do, and that is book in elsewhere.

The year-in, year-out 12-year pre-booking system is great for the ones that have had it, no doubt.

But the public that hasn't had a chance of getting in just might have an alternative view.

I am betting the new home allotments will be sold off the plan.

It's all about making money, nothing personal.